Altec 32343 Network Divider

[voice of the theater]

Allen--I saw your photos regarding this thread over at L.H. and am posting the link here since you mentioned you'd be posting the photos here eventually. This may help you to get some more info from our members.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...What-are-these Your H.F. drivers look very similar to Altec 802-8G drivers and the cabinets look to be home-made, but there are most likely other members here who can be more specific/add to these observations.

By the way, I have used the Solen caps (that you mentioned) in my Model 19's and Model 14's and have found them to have excellent sonic characteristics. However, everyone has their own preferences in caps and I have seen threads regarding capacitor preferences generate almost as "spirited" of a debate as threads regarding wire/cables. Best of luck with your project....

[Corona Blue]

Hi V.O.T.-

Thanks for the cross-link over to L.H., and for the info on the Solens. I went ahead and purchased a set for both networks and I'm sure they will be more than adequate. They would have to be better than the old dried up caps that were in there!!

I tend to prefer paper in oil caps or good quality foil in oil, but with the space limitations on this network box, and the cost of oil caps... HA! The caps would be worth more than the rest of the components combined!

With regard to the HF drivers, I too thought they looked a lot like something that might have come in an old Altec. They actually sound very good whatever they are. Great dispersion pattern and wide "sweet spot." The 123A-1's seem to lack punch. I have no experience with them beyond this project, so I don't know their innate character. Do people ever modify these? Or is that considered sacrosanct amongst the vintage JBL fans? Just curious. I'll re-evaluate them after the XO networks are finished.

Well I hope to have some time to draw up the 32343 schematic. When I do I will post at both forums.

Thanks again for the assistance,

Allen

[voice of the theater]

I'm glad I could help.

The 123A-1's seem to lack punch. I have no experience with them beyond this project, so I don't know their innate character. Do people ever modify these? Or is that considered sacrosanct amongst the vintage JBL fans?

If they were my speakers I'd replace those 123A-1's with a pair of 414's. As you probably know, Altec doesn't manufacture the 414's any more (or any of their high quality speakers) as a result of being bought out by Sparkomatic (to make a long story short). However, Great Plains Audio does manufacture brand new 414's. If you've never heard of GPA, they are owned and operated by former Altec employees who bought the designs, schematics, tooling etc. to make authentic Altec Lansing replacement parts. Here's a link to some brand new 414's http://cgi.ebay.com/Altec-Lansing-GP...item35ad4c1876

This link is for Great Plains Audio's website for more info about the company http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/ If you call them, you can bypass Ebay. Of course you could look for a used pair of 414's, but I'd go for the brand new ones--you will be amazed by their sound and you don't have to worry about buying used (and potentially expensive) speakers that may need re-cones, etc.

I clicked on the links that Earl K was kind enough to provide for you http://altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/Spe...r%20System.pdf I can see that your crossover was designed to work well with the 414 woofers and Altec 902 h.f. driver which means AFAIK it should also work well with your h.f. driver (other members please chime in to confirm this). Altec used the 802-8G (which is what your drivers look like to me?) in Model 19's for example, and then later switched to the 902 h.f. driver but kept the same crossover--in other words they were used more or less interchangeably by Altec in some applications AFAIK (the 902's replaced the 802-8G's). So, you'd basically have speaker very similar to an Altec 9849-8B studio monitor which was an excellent speaker! You would of course, have to adjust the tuning of your cabinets to optimize them for use with the 414 woofers--there are people here in addition to myself who can coach you on that (a few in particular who are very knowledgeable in cabinet tuning). It's not as hard as you might think.

Keep in mind, you can sell the JBL woofers (ebay, audiogon, craigslist, etc.) to recoup a good portion of the cost of new woofers--so for not much money--you could have some amazing speakers--very similar to Altec 9849-8b studio monitors in home made cabs. Hopefully others here (there are some amazing experts here) will chime in to either support or modify my recommendation......

[bowtie427ss]

I'll pull out an unmolested 32343 this evening and try to get some comprehensive pics that a wiring diagram can be drawn from.

If those HF drivers have been paired with the 32343's all along, they're likely a late version of 806 equipped with 23744 diaphragms and in some cases tangerines.

AFIAK, you would only find 902's in very late 9849's that also used ferrite 414-8E's by this time the networks were no longer labeled 32343, they were instead labeled with "9849-XX loudspeaker system", i don't think there are many examples of Altec mixing alnico and ferrite motors in the same systems.

[voice of the theater]

If those HF drivers have been paired with the 32343's all along, they're likely a late version of 806 equipped with 23744 diaphragms and in some cases tangerines.

AFIAK, you would only find 902's in very late 9849's that also used ferrite 414-8E's by this time the networks were no longer labeled 32343, they were instead labeled with "9849-XX loudspeaker system", i don't think there are many examples of Altec mixing alnico and ferrite motors in the same systems.

They look similar to the Altec 802-8G (great h.f. drivers with 23744 diaphragms and tangerine phase plugs)--but Bowtie is more of an authority here. If he says they're likely late versions of Altec 806's with 23744 diaphragm and possibly tangerine phase plugs, those are also amazing h.f. drivers and I'll defer to his expertise there. I'd still recommend going with Great Plains Audio's brand new (alnico) 414's. The 414 woofers were selected by the Altec engineers to work well with your crossover (and with the 806's)--and they are incredible woofers..... You could also, as I mentioned, go with used 414's but if they need work done on them, you won't be saving money going that route. I checked ebay and I don't see any 8 ohm alnico 414's on there currently. I did see some 16 ohm 414's (a resistor can make 16 ohm woofers work with an 8 ohm speaker system)--in the description for one pair the seller states he was going to send them to Great Plains Audio for service--so you've got a seller who seems to know what he's doing--but with his asking price combined with the cost of servicing them I'd go brand new..... With new 414's installed, and possibly a tuning adjustment to the cabs, you won't be complaining about a lack of "punch" any more!

[bowtie427ss]

Oh i'm no expert here VOTT, but i am familiar with the 9849's as i've owned a few. AFAIK, the 9849 is the only speaker that was factory equipped with the 32343 XO, and the 23746 compression driver. Apparently the 23746 was made with both annular metal and radial plastic(tangerine) phase plugs, i think member RonSSS has examples of each. I currently have 9849-8D's with annular metal phased 23746's, those drivers "look" like an 802-8G with the same new style rear cover and rough cast exterior surface except they're the shorter body and smaller magnet of the 806. Here's a pic of one of my drivers from a while back.

[voice of the theater]

Oh i'm no expert here VOTT, but i am familiar with the 9849's as i've owned a few. AFAIK, the 9849 is the only speaker that was factory equipped with the 32343 XO, and the 23746 compression driver. Apparently the 23746 was made with both annular metal and radial plastic(tangerine) phase plugs, i think member RonSSS has examples of each. I currently have 9849-8D's with annular metal phased 23746's, those drivers "look" like an 802-8G with the same new style rear cover and rough cast exterior surface except they're the shorter body and smaller magnet of the 806. Here's a pic of one of my drivers from a while back.

Allen, does that look like your h.f. driver? (click to enlarge the photo) It looks similar to me but hard to tell from the angle and lighting of your (Allen's) photo. If that's your driver, I'd still recommend 414's since they were selected by Altec engineers to work with that h.f. driver and your crossovers.... As I mentioned before, your speakers would be very similar to Altec 9849's (which are great speakers) in (well made) home made cabs. With those woofers you'd have an amazing pair of speakers.....

The cabinet is well made from 3/4 inch birch ply and its outside dimensions are: 24" (H) x 16.5" (W) x 12" (D) with a 3/4" vent across the lower part of baffle board.

Allen

[voice of the theater]

The 2.21" says 806 type driver. I can't find my calipers, but a tape measure confirmed that.
So next question is the phase plug. Just use a flashlight in the throat....remove it from the horn....and tell us if it's silver or orange.

Nice! Thanks for measuring Ron--now we're getting somewhere..... Allen, with the horns you have, you won't have to remove the drivers from the horns to see the phase plug. Just shine a flashlight in the throat of the horn and you'll see the phase plug. If it's a tangerine plug it will look like the orange circle at the left of this photo--if you use a bright flashlight--even through the screen you will see what looks like tangerine slices and an orange-ish hue....

And yeah, these have been sitting in my living room half assembled for 6 months now. I just need to remove one bug screen, put them together and haul em down to the audio room.

Ron, my Model 14's and 19's still have the bug screens in them. What differences/advantages do you notice from removing them? Since replacing the capacitors in my speakers with Solens, I am extremely happy with their sound. However, if there's a way to get them to sound even better, of course I'm interested. These are being used in my home, and I don't move them around. Do I need the "protection" of bug screens? Anyone else want to chime in about the merits or drawbacks of removing the screens? I play my speakers without the grills on--I don't want the sound to have to pass through fabric. Do I lose anything by having the sound pass through screens?

[Corona Blue]

Wow! Thanks so much for your kind help guys!! I spent this afternoon deriving the schematic. Have a look and see if it looks right to you.



I haven't had time to put a meter on VR1 to verify its value. I suspect it is around 100k. (04/25 UPDATE: VR1 is 7 ohm/50 or 100 watt component) And I don't know the values of the inductors. If anybody knows this stuff, I can update it. Once we know it's right, feel free to add it to the documents lib.

VOTT- yes, that does indeed look like the same HF driver! Sorry about those blurry snaps... batteries in the cam were dying so auto focus was dodgy... I will attempt to get some clearer shots tomorrow... for now... just put yer glasses on! :-)

Let me know and thanks again.

Allen

:thankU:

[Earl K]

Thanks so very much for this Allen !

I'm always very thankfull when someone takes the time to expose the workings of an older network such as this . We all benefit by these efforts / so thanks again !

Does it look right ?

- Yes, electrically your layout is very workable ( when designing for an @ 1500 to 1600hz acoustic crossover point ) .
- The component layout ( visually ) on your drawing is fairly unconventional ( & may confuse untrained eyes ) / but it's the eletrical layout that matters here .

FYI ;

• L1 & L2 could be in the neighbourhood of 1.2 mH for a standard "B2 filter" rolloff ( B2 = 2nd order ButterWorth filter ) .
• L3 ( at that location ) would need to be @ .075 to .20 mH to function properly and do anything of importance to the HF filtering .
• VR1 should be a standard type 8 ohm variable Lpad ( 100 watt ) .
• The values of the capacitors do "ball-park" to where I would expect them ( ie; knowing the components somewhat , as well as Altecs' standard approach to dealing with the FR curves of those components ) .

- It would be nice to have your layout confirmed by a second set of eyes on another network ( before declaring this all correct ) .

<> cheers EarlK